THE GARDEN OF SINNERS
An Interview with Kinoku Nasu and Takashi Takeuchi
Interview by Katsushi Ota
Translated by Paul Johnson

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(Editor’s note: The interview discusses how The Garden of Sinners will be receiving an American release. Unfortunately, only the first chapter has been published as Del Rey Manga went defunct before the series had more releases. The original text spells Kinoko’s name as “Kinoku” which will be kept.)

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This interview was conducted with the creators of The Garden of Sinners novel, Kinoku Nasu and Takashi Takeuchi, on the occasion of the theatrical release of the first anime adaptation of The Garden of Sinners. This revolutionary novel required an equally revolutionary anime treatment, which was what studio ufotable gave it: Each of the novel’s seven chapters will be adapted as fifty-minute anime features and released to theaters. The interview also includes the creator’s thoughts on the American debut of their work in this edition of Faust.

The interviewer is Katsushi Ota, the editor in chief of Faust and one of Japan’s most prominent fiction editors. Born in 1972 in the town of Kurashiki-shi, Okayama prefecture, Ota joined Kodansha, Japan’s largest publisher, in 1995. His first assignments included editing shojo manga, but he then moved to Kodansha’s literary department as an editor of mystery novels. In 2003, as part of Kodansha’s 100th anniversary celebration, Ota was awarded Kodansha’s top honor when he won the Kodansha New Magazine Prize. When Ota launched Faust magazine in the same year, he became Kodansha’s youngest-ever editor in chief. Faust‘s eclectic mix of genres—including literary and popular fiction and comics—and innovative editorial style has made it one of the most notable and influential magazines in Japan. In 2006, Ota launched his newest publishing program, the Kodansha Box line, which he hopes to bring to readers worldwide.

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OTA: The Garden of Sinners movie has just been released [in Japan], so I’d like to ask you, if I may, about the details leading up to its creation.

NASU: Back in 1998, Takeuchi told me he was opening up a website and asked me if I’d write a monthly serial for it. What I wrote was the first chapter of The Garden of Sinners. Takeuchi wanted something that would go on for a year, so I thought of starting out with a grand plot and then breaking it down into monthly episodes that would come out on staggered release over the course of the year. The Garden of Sinners was an experiment in fusing romance and the modern detective novel—something I’d been dreaming of trying for a long time.

OTA: Text-based sites really took off on the Internet in 1997 and ’98, didn’t they?

TAKEUCHI: They did. I think that’s just when individuals were first getting their own websites and starting to put all kinds of stuff up on them.

OTA: Tatsuhiko Takimoto and Takekuni Kitayama were publishing essays and works on websites about then, too. So what was the result?

TAKEUCHI: Hmm . . . Well, The Garden of Sinners wasn’t exactly easy on the eye to read online. It had alternate readings for some words written above the kanji, so we had to write them in brackets after the word instead when we put it online. Back then, just putting something out on the Internet was fun in itself. I’d found myself a job but then came back home to Tokyo after the company I was working at went under, and Nasu was still just an amateur writer back then, so I contacted him and asked if he wanted to put the story up on a website.

OTA: But the response wasn’t very good. And when you collected the serialized parts and tried to sell them at comic markets, I hear that only five copies sold and Mr. Takeuchi became incredibly depressed about the whole thing.

TAKEUCHI: That’s right. Thanks to the Internet, people could now display their works all over the place. Nasu and I were all fired up and tried to take the Web by storm, but there were far too many places now where people could show off and sell their work, and ours just didn’t get a second look. Having no one read our work was frustrating like you wouldn’t believe.

OTA: So you turned your attention to making dating games and made your big break with Tsukihime.

NASU: Visual novels for the PC were really taking off at the time. Takeuchi had played them and was like “There’s this whole culture here!” He said that if people wouldn’t read our original novels on the Web or at comic markets, they’d definitely read them if they were in visual novel form, so we should make one. Reactions to Tsukihime were slow but solid, and after a while, we made our breakthrough with it. There was a novel afterward based on the foundations of Tsukihime . . . but the fans know all about that. The webpage on which we’d put The Garden of Sinners was long gone by then, so to get it out as a book, we published it ourselves as a fan job.

OTA: I could really feel the love for Kodansha Novels when I saw the self-published version of your book. It had a really suggestive cover and contents . . . but there was a mushroom logo on the cover where Kodansha’s dog would have been, and the typesetting was identical to Kodansha’s, too—two sets of eighteen lines with twenty-three characters per line. And it was a hybrid of romance and modern mystery. . . . Anyway, that did it. I had to meet you. “This is where I come in,” I thought. [laughs] I remember sending you a really psyched-up e-mail.

NASU: We were both excited, but at the same time, we were dreading it, too. It was like the executioner we’d been waiting for had finally shown up with his ax.

OTA: I got a reply from the two of you right away. “Let’s meet in Akihabara.” I was thinking, “Aah, so it’s Akihabara after all, huh? It’s kind of far out there.”

NASU: Cafe Corona in front of Akihabara station, wasn’t it?

OTA: Just an average, everyday coffee shop. I got a good understanding after talking to you in detail and asking about your personal history. We were similar in age, had read the same books, and I’d become an editor while you’d become a writer. That’s why, despite the fact that I felt strongly about wanting you to write something new, I also really wanted you to let Kodansha Novels publish The Garden of Sinners. Oh, that’s right . . . because I knew you were making girlie games at the time, I was really worried that a couple of super–otaku geeks were going to walk in.

NASU: What, you expected me to be all like “How fare you this fine morn, my liege?” [laughs]

OTA: If thou were, I wouldst have been in trouble! [laughs] But you both turned out to be fine, upstanding guys. The impression was so strong, though, that when people ask me what you’re both like in person, I always answer that you’re like a couple of samurai.

NASU: Takeuchi is the samurai . . . I’m more like the village geisha. . . . Uh, no. More like the totally useless young lord of the castle.

OTA: No, no, you’re both like noble samurai! Well, that’s the impression I got. Especially Mr. Takeuchi—he was like a swordsman from the end of the Tokugawa era. He gave off this intense aura. . . . It was like he wouldn’t care if you said something rude to him, but if you insulted Mr. Nasu, then he’d slice you in two there and then.

NASU: It feels more like he’s projecting a “Keep away” kind of aura these days. Like he’s been through a lot and doesn’t trust people easily.

TAKEUCHI: Hmm. I guess I’m just not the hungry wolf I used to be. [laughs]

OTA: But it’s because I got that impression of you that I was able to understand how your artwork got across to the readers. I said something incredibly rude at that first meeting, actually. I told you that you weren’t a very skilled artist. . . . Do you remember?

TAKEUCHI: Nope. [laughs]

OTA: But I also said that your drawings were really good. There are more skilled artists than stars in the sky, but not many who can draw great pictures. I remember getting a strong feeling that, out of all the people in the world, the drawings by the artist called Takashi Takeuchi were ultimately drawn for one person alone—Kinoku Nasu. That’s why they have such a heroic soul to them. I’m always amazed at how brilliantly the finished product turns out whenever the two of you team up.

TAKEUCHI: I’d like to think that’s the case. I don’t really understand it myself.

OTA: I figured that The Garden of Sinners self-published book had sold tens of thousands of copies and was already probably a sellout item across town, but I still really wanted it for a Kodansha hardback. I do remember telling you that I didn’t think sales figures for it would be that high.

NASU: We didn’t think it could outsell the version we’d published, either.

OTA: It took a whole year to get your permission to publish it.

NASU: Because we were just about to start making Fate / Stay Night at the time. It was just when we were making the move from fan publisher to professional company. We were being really cautious about things. But one day Takeuchi gave me a nudge, so I asked you if you were still interested in doing it, and you said, “Of course!” You’d always been in constant contact, and when you said that you wanted to put the book out as a collectors’ edition, it was like a dream come true. Takeuchi and I had thought that The Garden of Sinners fan-published book had used up all the sales it was going to get, so we were against the idea of publishing it for real. We thought it wouldn’t benefit us at all. But we were really happy that the editor of Kodansha was willing to deal so sincerely with a couple of know-it-all kids like us for a year.

OTA: You two were so busy with Fate / Stay Night, and here I was every month coming over and saying “How about this?” I completely didn’t get it, did I . . . ? [nervous laugh] Oh yes, I remember. . . . I didn’t really leave you much choice in the end. I didn’t want the whole thing to just fizzle out, so I conspired to enlist the help of one of Mr. Nasu’s gods—a certain Mr. Kiyoshi Kasai—and set up a visit to his house. He was a hard fellow to say no to then, wasn’t he? I mean . . . five minutes after we arrived, he said, “Well, let’s go to the hot springs,” and thirty minutes later, we’re all sitting in a hot spring like best buddies and he’s saying, “So then, Nasu, you’re going to publish The Garden of Sinners with Ota here, hmm?” [laughs]

NASU: We were thinking, “So this is what he was up to. These must be the sneaky backdoor tactics a pro uses.” [laughs] Though it was less a backdoor thing and more a full frontal attack. There was no way we could say no.

OTA: Well, it was all because I wanted to give you a totally perfect debut. I don’t think I’ll rack my brains and exert my meager strength so hard ever again with a new author. You’d both become big figures out in the world while I was trying to persuade you to let Kodansha publish it as a hardback, but you were still kind enough to choose me despite your super-star status, and that was something I really wanted to put all my effort into paying you back for.

NASU: We were both shocked by your collectors’ edition. We were like “Look at this incredible box he’s put together!” when we saw the sample you’d brought along. “Somebody stop this guy! There’s no need to go so overboard!” [laughs]

OTA: And it sold out in just two hours. Bookstore owners still hate me now, you know. It was pretty rough on them.

NASU: Yeah, that was all your fault, too! [laughs] I guess only people who managed to grab a copy will know what I’m talking about, but it was an insane and totally over-the-top design. . . . I’m really sorry for the people who couldn’t buy one, but I hope those who did will treasure it like gold dust.

OTA: It may have had important links to TYPE-MOON’s other works, but to think that a novel-only product—something that didn’t come out in any other media—would be-come one of the bestselling Kodansha novels of all time. Mr. Takeuchi’s exclusive original drawings and illustrations were really good, too. I remember being totally convinced that it would sell as soon as I saw the cover for volume one.

NASU: I thought the same thing. “This will sell.” But if I’d known how well, I’d have worked over the contents a few more times! [laughs]

OTA: I heard all kinds of malicious talk, saying how of course it was going to do well, since TYPE-MOON was the “in thing” at the moment, but the fad would die off and suddenly sales would grind to a halt. But it’s still a top seller in the novel world today. It’s already a must-have book among otaku, and it’s attained a timeless-classic status. It’s just been a novel up until now, never crossing over into any other kind of media, so what do you think about the whole seven chapters being adapted into a full seven-part movie version?

TAKEUCHI: I still can’t believe it. I always thought that The Garden of Sinners would have to be made more easily accessible for the masses if it was turned into a movie, or have parts changed to get it on TV, etcetera, but since I didn’t want anything changing in any way, then I figured the only way it would work would be as a super-small-scale OVA or some-thing . . . that we’d have to aim it only at a few dedicated people who love the original with a passion. This movie adaptation is taking exactly the opposite mind-set, and though I was pretty worried when I first heard, I think in the end both approaches have the same goal in mind. In order to preserve the integrity of the work, I’d have kept the scale small, but I guess these guys have decided on going for a massive scale instead. I was quite shocked by their approach, but now I’ve been gradually won over.

OTA: What about Mr. Nasu?

NASU: Well, I laughed so hard it hurt. [laughs] I didn’t think anything could shock me at this point, but I’d never experienced that kind of blow before. . . . I remember that I asked you to repeat it after you told me. I couldn’t believe it. It was a kind of a joke until I heard that ufotable were in charge of production; then I sat up and listened. The whole thing was like a dream, and I got a bit carried away.

OTA: I’m always impressed when I see how much effort the two of you are putting into the anime, actually.

TAKEUCHI: From a massive distance, though.

NASU: Judging from my experiences with anime adaptations so far, I can’t say whether it’s better to completely hand the whole thing over to the people making it or get slightly involved with the process myself. So I didn’t know whether to announce that I’m going for absolute involvement and joining Ufo completely or standing back and not going in very often but giving my full assistance when I do. This time we’ve gone for the second option.

OTA: Mr. Takeuchi had Mr. Toushi’s designs worked over from scratch, and Mr. Nasu is spending his whole day at scriptwriting meetings once a fortnight. Ufo seems to be really kind and accommodating.

TAKEUCHI: I’m just happy that the Ufo staff never tell us something can’t be done.

NASU: You just have to speak your wish and it’s granted. It’s a pretty great power to be wielding.

TAKEUCHI: I’ve noticed recently that neither of us can just say “Do it!” But, still, I’m really happy about all they do for us. I feel totally welcome on the production committee. Even when they’ve had to put their foot down with us, they’ve never lost their temper and said “That’s just the way it is, dammit.” The whole committee listens to what we have to say and takes it into consideration before making a decision.

OTA: Well, even if they’re a production committee, it’s still a company with a product to make. None of them are turning up at the meetings just because it’s work. Passion and sincerity are essential for a discussion, and there isn’t a person on the committee who doesn’t have both. That’s why it’s going so well.

TAKEUCHI: Actually, I’ll tell you what I’ve been glad about recently. The starting idea: “Seven chapters—seven movies. That’s how The Garden of Sinners should be!” That way the plot flows perfectly, and nothing ends up confusing or incoherent. I think it’s great that the whole committee was able to naturally take to this concept. It really is the best way to adapt the book to film.

NASU: It’s already too late to cut it down into just two or three parts. Usually with anime, the length is absolutely set in stone, so you end up having to cut the story down, but this time everyone is like “How are we going to extend the last five minutes to wrap it up?” [laughs] A normal anime would just cut bits out without question. It’s kind of amazing when you think about it.

TAKEUCHI: What Nasu and I are asking for is more than 100 percent . . . more like 101 percent or 102 percent. The fact that we’re actually getting it this time is such a great feeling . . . something like that. I think it’s going so well because everyone involved has such a desire for improvement. Not settling for standard quality is what’s making everyone give that 101 to 102 percent.

NASU: Even if the different directors get it wrong from chapter to chapter, the staff have got the groundwork down right so it shouldn’t be too jumbled. Though nobody knows what’s gonna happen with chapter 5! [laughs] I really hope it just follows the storyboard exactly.

OTA: Let’s just have faith that every part will be a masterpiece of anime. When I saw the finished movie of chapter 1, I really felt like it was well worth the eighteen hundred—yen admittance, even though it’s only fifty minutes long.

TAKEUCHI: I guess people don’t mind handing over cash for a quality product.

NASU: But if kids in the countryside want to come and see it, it’ll cost them five thousand yen just for the train fare. And they might come all the way to find the cinema is full and they can’t get in. If they do, I’ll just give them Mr. Ota’s home address. [laughs] But I’d like people to come and see all seven if they can. Mr. Ota’s planning to try out making a different pamphlet for each of the movies and selling them, so that people can look at them after all seven parts have finished and remember how they were there for this Garden of Sinners movie festival. Afterward, you’ll have seven pamphlets to show for it, and you can look back and think “Ah, that was a good time.” That’s the hope that we’re putting into them.

OTA: They’re taking a huge amount of time and money to put together, after all. They have foil front covers, and all the text will take at least thirty minutes to read. They really are some fantastic pamphlets.

TAKEUCHI: Well, it’s all very well if you live in and around Tokyo, but what about the people who live in Hokkaido? [laughs]

OTA: I guess they’ll just have to run away from home . . . But all joking aside, studio morale and the committee’s mood are on the rise, and the original novel is now a Kodansha trade paperback. Mr. Nasu, what do you think about the fact that famous authors are providing commentaries for the Kodansha paperback editions of The Garden of Sinners? Yukito Ayatsuji is doing volume one, Hideyuki Kikuchi volume two, and Kiyoshi Kasai volume three.

NASU: Well, put it this way: When I die and they read my will, there’ll be a sentence after the part where I thank Takeuchi and my parents, and it’ll read “Thank you, Mr. Ota, for convincing those three!” Having your childhood heroes comment on your work is an incredible honor for an author. But this is almost too much of a reward for me to take. [laughs] Mr. Ayatsuji, Mr. Kikuchi, and Mr. Kasai have all interpreted the books in totally different ways. Hopefully, it’ll confirm just how many different ways there are of looking at my work. I feel just a little bit proud of myself for writing all these stories now. . . . Having these three look at my work in this way . . . I felt like my heart was going to explode. But it wouldn’t have happened if not for Kodansha and you, Mr. Ota. I don’t think another editor would have been able to get them or would even have come up with the idea in the first place.

OTA: I just thought that, since Kodansha was finally doing The Garden of Sinners in paperback, I wouldn’t be able to show my face again if it didn’t have that extra something that distinguished it from a Dengeki Bunko or Sneaker Bunko book. As someone flying the Kodansha banner, I’d just end up being criticized as exploiting you if we turned out the same book that anyone could have printed. It wasn’t a triumph just for me alone but for all of Kodansha.

NASU: Contentwise, I don’t think there’s a single page that wasn’t retouched for the paperback version. It’s embarrassing. . . . There’s so much I didn’t put in the first time around. Damn. I want people to read only the paperback now and leave the hardback well alone!

OTA: What are you saying? [nervous laugh] Well, finally, do the two of you have any closing statements?

NASU: I’d like to make a machine to go to committee meetings instead of Takeuchi. The poor guy gets in to work at ten in the morning, is in the meeting until whenever it ends, then has his own work to get done. By the time it’s all finished, it’s past midnight before he gets home.

TAKEUCHI: If I had to say one thing, it would be that I want Nasu to just write about the things he enjoys writing about. Nowadays, I get the feeling he’s on some kind of life-and-death mission . . . like there’s this sword hanging over his head making him feel like he’s got to write a fantastic work that everyone will hail as a thing of unparalleled splendor. . . . I want him to write stories not as Kinoku Nasu the major writer. His comedy name shows the fun side of him, and I want him to write about fun things that he enjoys.

NASU: But I can’t just write crap, though, can I?

TAKEUCHI: That’s true, but just remember that you don’t have to feel pressured into producing a masterpiece of historical significance every time you write.

OTA: I’m sure I’m speaking for all the fans when I say that as long as the two of you just stay yourselves, then I’m sure everything will work out fine!

Faust is having an American release in the summer of 2008 and will feature chapter 1 of The Garden of Sinners: A View from Above. In fact, this interview is going to be appearing there, too. Could I ask what the two of you think about it?

TAKEUCHI: I’m looking forward to seeing how it’ll be received in America. When it was written, The Garden of Sinners was packed full of things that Kinoku Nasu is nuts for, and they’re definitely very “Japanese,” so it has to be said that it’s kind of a favorite dish full of stuff that the two of us really love. After it was finished, we made things with the mind-set “Maybe everyone else likes the same stuff as us,” and in hindsight, I think we guessed right. But will that apply to the rest of the world, though? I can’t wait to see if a foreign country finds the same things interesting as we do.

NASU: I’m a little scared, actually. If it’s totally lost on overseas readers, I might end up thinking “Oh well . . . heh heh heh . . . Guess I’d better stay cooped up in Japan farming the rice fields after all.” [laughs]

TAKEUCHI: And that’s fine, too, you know?

NASU: We crammed all of our favorite things into a story and put it out there in the world, along with our feeling of unshakable pride. . . . Now it’s crossed the language barrier, so let’s see how far it goes. There’s a genuine pleasure just in that alone. At the same time, though, if it’s accepted somewhere, it’s sure to be hated somewhere else. I mean, we’re talking about the country that made Team America, after all! [laughs] It’s amazing how broad-minded people must be to accept that level of black humor and for it to he accepted as entertainment. People can he incredibly tolerant. It’s known as a melting pot of races and cultures, after all.

TAKEUCHI: It is, isn’t it? It’ll be fun if English-speaking readers look at The Garden of Sinners and say something like “It was interesting, but I’d have done it this way instead. . . .” And isn’t the Japanese author Haruki Murakami being ranked as the literary successor to such American writers as Fitzgerald and Salinger? So maybe—in, say, ten or twenty years’ time—people will be talking about how Kinoku Nasu’s literary successor was an American writer. I, for one, hope that’s the case.